No on Prop 8 just sent me this bulls*&t:
“We achieve nothing if we isolate the people who did not stand with us in this fight. We only further divide our state if we attempt to blame people of faith, African American voters, rural communities and others for this loss. We know people of all faiths, races and backgrounds stand with us in our fight to end discrimination, and will continue to do so. Now more than ever it is critical that we work together and respect our differences that make us a diverse and unique society. Only with that understanding will we achieve justice and equality for all.â€
I don’t think anybody is BLAMING African-Americans for Prop 8. We’re just upset that their community ironically doesn’t seem to see the value of equal rights, and going after the Mormon and other faiths is a 100% correct strategy since, once again, it’s their money that pushed their agenda through. The Yes on 8 side had to lie to convince people that a ban on gay marriage is what GOD wants.
First of all, it’s going to take a GREATER amount of time, money and energy to convince these people of what they’ve done. It’s wasteful since people were already so quick to believe the Mormon scare tactics which successfully played on faith-based people’s already default position that homosexuality is immoral. Good luck trying to change their minds.
Secondly, by pandering to religious groups, we cede MORE civic power to the religious right, not less. We are admitting that they should be able to control the civil rights of others, just not ours. Another losing argument. The churches need to be REMOVED from politics, not brought front-and-center into the conversation.
Another miscalculation by No on 8. Nice job, guys. You run a hell of a campaign, ignoring thousands of years of theocratic ‘fact’ and begging, ‘please don’t take our rights away. Pretty please?’
Besides, division of the electorate was THEIR strategy. It’s not our fault, it’s theirs, so why is No on Prop 8 internalizing it? I will NEVER apologize for being pro-civil rights.
SMS
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26 Responses to Separation of church and state is the larger issue
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“… going after the Mormon and other faiths is a 100% correct strategy …”
Right – “correct strategy”, good one. Go after those nasty Mormons – real smart. Religious persecution has always won out in the end – hasn’t it?
No, it hasn’t, but clearly the Mormons have already forgotten what it feels like, haven’t they? And nobody wants to persecute anybody. We simply want them out of our government where they don’t belong.
RELIGION IS NOT A WEAPON!
SMS
SMS said: “We simply want them out of our government where they don’t belong.”
How are you going to do that?
By denying individuals who happen to have a religious affiliation the right to support candidates and issues of their choice?
It was not the Mormon church who supported Yes on 8; it was a group of individuals who happen to be Mormon.
How are you going to do that? I am interested.
To paraphrase James Carville, ‘it’s the money, stupid.’
SMS
“To paraphrase James Carville, ‘it’s the money, stupid.” SMS”
Yes – it is the money – what are you going to do about it? Prohibit those with religious beliefs from contributing to support their issues and candidates?
What are you going to do – give me something concrete, besides your bit**ing.
?????????
I can’t believe you guys are talking about this when there is a raging debate going on about new grocery stores in Santa Ana. It’s amazing!
coaster -
I’M not going to do anything about it besides support the cause. It’s up to the courts and the ballot two years from now to do the heavy lifting. So, I’m protesting through my writings. That’s what I do.
SMS
Good afternoon curious.
While I agree that the grocery store issue in Santa Ana should be addressed by the blogs, we have a wide family of writers covering stories from several citites in Orange County to statewide and national issues. Prop 8 is simply one of the many issues that we have addressed. In fact we have posted over 5,000 stories on the Orange Juice blog since its founding by Art just a few years ago.
Why should gays get special treatment under the many laws if they get married or are allowed to marry?
Discrimination?
Almost all of the laws discriminate by giving one person or a group or type something denied to others.
I think the courts took the easy way out, let the gays marry instead of tossing all the laws and starting from scratch.
Does sociality have a right to set the rights for its members?
SMS said: “I’M not going to do anything about it …”
Then exactly what do you mean by “Separation of church and state is the larger issue” in relation to Prop 8?
That statement is not cogent to the Prop 8 debate without further explanation. It makes no sense.
“We simply want them out of our government where they don’t belong. Again – makes no sense without further explanation.
Do you just say things because they pop into your mind?
Have a rational position – not unconnected random thoughts.
coaster -
OK. NOW I see your point. I apologize. I think, and I’ve said this before, churches who advocate legislation should no longer be allowed to be tax-exempt. It doesn’t matter if the church doesn’t use its OWN money; asking its followers to use theirs instead is just taking advantage of a loophole in the tax code that needs to be closed once and for all.
Did you know that the Mormons demand that 10% of the income of each of its followers be donated to the church? I guess that’s not so bad in comparison to the Scientologists who take it all, right?
SMS
“It doesn’t matter if the church doesn’t use its OWN money; asking its followers to use theirs instead is just taking advantage of a loophole in the tax code that needs to be closed once and for all.”
SMS – You would be hard pressed to prove that the Mormon church is asking people to donate to any candidate or issue. I don’t think that the Mormon church or any organized tax exempt church is dumb enough to do that. Religious people contribute of their own volition.
“RELIGION IS NOT A WEAPON” – what the “H – E – double hockey sticks” is that supposed to mean in relation to Prop 8 ?? Again – have a rational, cogent, coherent argument – not mindless statements that mean nothing. You are embarassing yourself.
No on Prop 8 religion haters are pissing up a rope.
Keep going, have fun, it will lead you no-where.
coaster -
If you can’t even admit that the opposition to same-sex marriage is based in religion, then I’m not going to have this argument with you. If you and I can’t even agree that the sky is blue, then what’s the point? You’re precisely the kind of person on whom the No on Prop 8 people shouldn’t waste precious resources. Please get a clue or some integrity and then we might be able to discuss this rationally.
SMS
SMS,
I agree that some opposition ito Prop 8 is based on the religious convictions of many individuals. You seem hell bent on ascribing those individuals religious opposition to some organized Mormon, or other, church entity – it is not there.
Individuals are allowed to have an opinion and to make contributions to issues and candidates of their choosing – regardless if they base their opinions on a religious conviction or what color they think the sky is.
A. Are you opposed to religious individuals who make or solicit political contributions?
B. Or are you opposed to religious organizations that make or solicit political contributions?
If your opposition is to B. – I am with you. Point them out and I will shout them down alongside of you.
If your opposition is to A. – that is religious persecution.
coaster -
Not only is the answer ‘B,’ but Mormons themselves admit it:
‘“While those who disagree with our position on Proposition 8 have the right to make their feelings known, it is wrong to target the Church and its sacred places of worship for being part of the democratic process,” (church spokeswoman) Farah said.‘ – SF Gate (That took all of 5 seconds to find.)
I’m not going to let you bog me down by searching the internet for more quotes like that one, but the truth is that the Mormons can’t encourage people to vote a certain way, tell them to put their money where their dogma is, claim victory, but then simultaneously claim that they didn’t actually solicit this outcome. Simply put, they can’t have it both ways. Now please, give us a break from your tireless search for a diversion from the truth.
SMS
SMS said: “… churches who advocate legislation should no longer be allowed to be tax-exempt.”
I agree SMS. Would this include Rev. Wright & Obama’s church – Trinity United. Would it include churches which support gay marriage?
The trouble is ALL churches do this to some degree. You would need to have an IRS agent in every church, for every service, to police this.
Is that what you want? An IRS agent in every church? Even pagan churches?
I do not know what you want. You have not directly answered any of my questions.
‘Is that what you want? An IRS agent in every church? Even pagan churches?‘
Sure, if that’s what it takes, but I think there’s got to be a better way. I’ve never been one to be accused of hypocrisy, so what’s good for the goose…
… and I do believe I’ve answered all of the relevant questions. I don’t respond well to diversions and straw-men.
SMS
Campaign finance records show the Utah-based church made an in-kind donation of $2,078.97 to support Proposition 8.
“By law, the church is required to report when it uses any expenses to travel in support of things like this (Prop 8)” Farah said.
“It’s a civics 101 lesson. Churches by law are allowed to speak on moral issues,” Farah said. “It does not jeopardized the church’s tax- exemption status and to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.”
SMS – It sounds like the Mormon church followed the law to me.
coaster -
Even if you’re right, in the end it’s not our call. That honor goes to the IRS. All we can do is point them in the right direction.
SMS
SMS – I think that the IRS knows where to look.
Debating you is like “Whack-a-Mole”
Knock down one lame argument and another one pops up.
coaster -
SMS – I think that the IRS knows where to look.
The IRS taxes gifts given to the so-called ‘Hollywood Liberals’ at the Academy Awards, but then allows conservative, dogmatic churches to propagate into government? Whack-a-mole nothing. Obviously the IRS could use a hand from some patriotic citizens such as myself.
SMS
SMS said: “Obviously the IRS could use a hand from some patriotic citizens such as myself.”
SMS – Go for it. I am certain that your efforts will prove fruitful.
As hard as it is for some of the bandwagoners to believe……
The Santa Ana Supermarket issue has a more direct effect on the quality of life for the majority, just not for the countless Gay couples in Floral Park.
You can fight a war on two fronts!
At a rally in the Fruitvale district, another black minister said gay black people don’t want to get married anyway.
“I am not trying to rail against gay people; we have gay people in our music department,” Ray Williams, pastor of the First Morning Star Baptist Church in Oakland, said at the pro-Prop. 8 rally. “When you look at the people getting married in San Francisco, you didn’t see very many blacks. It’s not a distinct issue in the black community.”
SMS – Why aren’t you doggin’ the black community and the black churches on their OVERWHELMING support for Prop 8 ?
coaster -
I’ve made my position on the African-American vote abundantly clear. And I’ve also stated that *I* don’t want to get married either, so on that we have some consensus, but sometimes you do something because it’s the right thing to do (note to Paul Lucas who claims I ‘vote against (my) own best interests’ – it’s called sacrifice for the greater good). We’ve now put our constitution on a slippery slope. We should all be appalled by that.
Now who’s the mole?
SMS